Serious flaw in the Mini Pro (Updated)

[funwithunicycle]

I recently bought a Mini Pro and my whole family loves it, but there is a flaw in its implementation that I think is very dangerous, at best counterintuitive. Every time you try to reverse, as your body leans on one side the Mini Pro turns in the other direction, i.e. if you lean on the right it goes left, vice versa. The first time I did so it threw me out of balance and almost felt from the stand. The implementation is fundamentally flaw because it messes up the physics (centre of gravity) and psychology. I really hope Ninebot can fix this in the next firmware upgrade. If you have kids using it you may want to alert them on this issue.

Another thing is about the headlight: it only wants to turn on when it is really really dark. Wondering if I can also manually turn it on; or even better, I can set the ambient light sensor's sensitivity. I found a headlight setting in the App, but it seems that the light sensor still takes precedent.

 

Update:

I did an experiment just now by standing on the MiniPro backward, and driving it backward (sorry I don't know how to say this better, but I hope you know what I mean). Just as I suspected, the backward riding is very intuitive, and so much fun! Bend right, it goes right; and bend left, it goes left. No awkward bending of knee and upper torso. It feels natural, and the physics checks out. (If you want to try this, be careful not to drive it forward. The manual says: You will risk crash/fall due to wrong steering direction!)

Ninebot engineers have decided to forgo the intuitive way of riding backward, and instead, wanted to make sure on-a-dime turning is stable (no sudden change of turning direction in case the user is going back and forth around the centre neutral point). But I think these two features (intuitive backward riding and stable on-a-point turning) are not mutually exclusive: The trade-off is unnecessary. With some coding, MiniPro should be able to know if the user wants to turn on a point, or wants to ride backward:

These are smart people and they can make that work for us. But like @killboydotcom said, we have to want it and request for it. @HermanTheGerman said:

Unfortunately a lot of code would need to be checked and changed, more than for the average small bugfix, and it's to expensive for them, or maybe the responsible persons fear to bring in some instability into a quite mature code. Thats the only reason.

I totally agree. And like @Synap said, it can be an option in the menu, so it does not have to be the same for everyone:

If we don't push them to do better, or worse, if we are blissful and don't even think the trade-off exist, then why should the engineers want to stick out their neck to radically improve the code? Right now, we are skaters that can only skate forward, but have been denied of the ability to skate backward (at least not very intuitively). And skate backward is so much fun too, if not more fun! And sometimes situations call for quick reflex, or it is important to keep an eye straight ahead while backing up, etc.

So come on NineBot engineers, it is time to step up the game and make our MIniPro even more intelligent!

[Synap]

your probably on it backwards.. get on it in the other direction.

I have not yet experienced any issues with the headlight.. I know the headlight can be turned on and off with the app.. I thnk also the headlight will turn off if the segway is not moving for certain amount of time.. but will then turn back on when u roll the wheels a certina amount of rotation.

[Synap]

i think the firmware can be modified to have the revers and forward turn in same direction of lean, depending on direction the wheels are rotating.. i think this would help when riding in reverse and trying to turn. It would also allow people to ride it backwards.. I can't yet see a reason why this is not already part of the firmware. Maybe we can at least test out a change in firmware that would allow this to see if it would work.. I also noticed this could help when tryhing to control the minipro remotely withthe app.. to make it easier to manuver in reverse direction.

[TLyleJeep]

3 hours ago, funwithunicycle said:

I recently bought a Mini Pro and my whole family loves it, but there is a flaw in its implementation that I think is very dangerous, at best counterintuitive. Every time you try to reverse, as your body leans on one side the Mini Pro turns in the other direction, i.e. if you lean on the right it goes left, vice versa. The first time I did so it threw me out of balance and almost felt from the stand. The implementation is fundamentally flaw because it messes up the physics (centre of gravity) and psychology. I really hope Ninebot can fix this in the next firmware upgrade. If you have kids using it you may want to alert them on this issue.

Another thing is about the headlight: it only wants to turn on when it is really really dark. Wondering if I can also manually turn it on; or even better, I can set the ambient light sensor's sensitivity. I found a headlight setting in the App, but it seems that the light sensor still takes precedent.

I have done the same thing! I was going in reverse a little to fast and did not remember to turn the opposite way to turn and almost got thrown off. It would be nice if the software knew you were going in reverse and switched the controls so you would not have to think to turn in the opposite direction that you wanted to go.

[Synap]

15 minutes ago, TLyleJeep said:

I have done the same thing! I was going in reverse a little to fast and did not remember to turn the opposite way to turn and almost got thrown off. It would be nice if the software knew you were going in reverse and switched the controls so you would not have to think to turn in the opposite direction that you wanted to go.

I can't think of a reason to not make it lean in sam direction with wheel rotation as opposed to front of vehicle.. because doing it the other way seems to be counter intuitive. .and since th esoftware can be updated.. a test can be done which either changes it or gives the user the option to change the direction by flipping a virutal switch in the app. settings.

[Solar_Segway_Mini_Pro]

On 8/17/2016 at 6:30 PM, funwithunicycle said:

I recently bought a Mini Pro and my whole family loves it, but there is a flaw in its implementation that I think is very dangerous, at best counterintuitive. Every time you try to reverse, as your body leans on one side the Mini Pro turns in the other direction, i.e. if you lean on the right it goes left, vice versa. The first time I did so it threw me out of balance and almost felt from the stand. The implementation is fundamentally flaw because it messes up the physics (centre of gravity) and psychology. I really hope Ninebot can fix this in the next firmware upgrade. If you have kids using it you may want to alert them on this issue.

Another thing is about the headlight: it only wants to turn on when it is really really dark. Wondering if I can also manually turn it on; or even better, I can set the ambient light sensor's sensitivity. I found a headlight setting in the App, but it seems that the light sensor still takes precedent.

It's not a perfect solution but it works: Don't go in reverse. You can spin 360 degrees on the Segway. Just rotate 180 and go forward. I rarely go in reverse. Always forward. The fact that the Mini Pro can rotate on its axis 360 degrees is so awesome. Keep riding forward! 

[TLyleJeep]

7 minutes ago, Solar_Segway_Mini_Pro said:

It's not a perfect solution but it works: Don't go in reverse. You can spin 360 degrees on the Segway. Just rotate 180 and go forward. I rarely go in reverse. Always forward. The fact that the Mini Pro can rotate on its axis 360 degrees is so awesome. Keep riding forward! 

That's good advice to always go forward and just use the ability of the minipro to rotate 180 degrees and go forward again since I have not mastered going in reverse and remembering which way to turn yet without thinking about it. It's kind of like backing a trailer which is automatic now but takes a little getting use to without thinking about it.

[Keith]

I'm racking my brains to think of any other vehicle that you don't need to give a left turn in order to turn right going backwards so in that respect it isn't counterintuitive. I suspect it may even behave the same way on a Segway? Anyone tried it? I wonder if that is why the owner of Segway died reversing over a cliff: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315518/Segway-tycoon-Jimi-Heselden-dies-cliff-plunge-scooters.html

I can see your point though, whilst on an EUC you do have to lean to your left to turn right going backwards which does mean it takes some time to learn you are, at least, leaning into the turn, not dangerously out of the turn.

the simplest answer may well be, as already stated, don't do it. To fix it in software could cause more problems than it fixes. For example, at what speed do you reverse the steering? Logically at 0kph, any reverse movement at all would need to reverse the steering. So let's take the scenerio you are pivoting on the spot and you put the merest hint of reverse in - all of a sudden the Mini will start swinging the opposite way on you. If you argue it needs, for this reason, to be a distinctly backwards movement then at some point whilst already reversing the steering suddenly reverses on you when you reach that speed. Not trivial is it?

[TLyleJeep]

2 minutes ago, Keith said:

I'm racking my brains to think of any other vehicle that you don't need to give a left turn in order to turn right going backwards so in that respect it isn't counterintuitive. I suspect it may even behave the same way on a Segway? Anyone tried it?

I can see your point though, whilst on an EUC you do have to lean to your left to turn right going backwards which does mean it takes some time to learn you are, at least, leaning into the turn, not dangerously out of the turn.

the simplest answer may well be, as already stated, don't do it. To fix it in software could cause more problems than it fixes. For example, at what speed do you reverse the steering? Logically at 0kph, any reverse movement at all would need to reverse the steering. So let's take the scenerio you are pivoting on the spot and you put the merest hint of reverse in - all of a sudden the Mini will start swinging the opposite way on you. If you argue it needs, for this reason, to be a distinctly backwards movement then at some point whilst already reversing the steering suddenly reverses on you when you reach that speed. Not trivial is it?

You made some valid points about the problems it may cause if the software was "fixed". 

[Ozpeter]

I keep saying what Keith said in response to Amazon reviewers who have trouble with reverse steering - it''s like all other vehicles, and having it any other way would be massively complex to achieve.  The simple thing to do if you have difficulty with reverse steering is not to think in terms of steering or leaning, but think "rotation" - rotate your body in the direction you want your body to point, and the segway will follow you.

[Solar_Segway_Mini_Pro]

On 8/19/2016 at 2:07 AM, Ozpeter said:

I keep saying what Keith said in response to Amazon reviewers who have trouble with reverse steering - it''s like all other vehicles, and having it any other way would be massively complex to achieve.  The simple thing to do if you have difficulty with reverse steering is not to think in terms of steering or leaning, but think "rotation" - rotate your body in the direction you want your body to point, and the segway will follow you.

And I keep on doing face palms  and thinking why not just go forward? One can rotate 360 degrees without moving an inch forward. One should be able to just go forward without worrying about which way to turn when reversing. 

[MetricUSA]

Have you tried going across a slope? It will try to correct Itself by all turning downhill to balance itself, you constantly have to lean up hill, in order to keep straight across a slope...Yeah make sure you turn off the warning for reverse in the settings,...

[Synap]

9 minutes ago, MetricUSA said:

Have you tried going across a slope? It will try to correct Itself by all turning downhill to balance itself, you constantly have to lean up hill, in order to keep straight across a slope...Yeah make sure you turn off the warning for reverse in the settings,...

this is an example why a handle bar would be easeir.. becaue leaning with the knee bar can be difficult to do because healthy knees do not ben side ways. https://qualityoflife.org/surgery/joint-replacement-team/knees/common-knee-injuries-and-conditions/

[Solar_Segway_Mini_Pro]

1 hour ago, Synap said:

this is an example why a handle bar would be easeir.. becaue leaning with the knee bar can be difficult to do because healthy knees do not ben side ways. https://qualityoflife.org/surgery/joint-replacement-team/knees/common-knee-injuries-and-conditions/

This is just one of a myriad of reasons why a handle bar would be better for the Mini Pro. There are reasons why the original Segways were built with handle bars. It is categorically safer to ride with a handle bar than without. The Millennial and younger crowds want a 'cool' ride. The cool factor comes at the expense of safety. 

 

That said, I am getting quite adept at riding the Mini Pro. It becomes very handy not to have a handle bar when I need both hands to carry stuff. This past weekend, I went camping and brought my Mini Pro with me. I was able to use the Mini Pro to transport all my equipment from where I parked to where I was actually setting up my base camp. I went back and forth so many times during setup then packup that I lost count. It was so useful. But alas, my right tire got a puncture from a little tack pin. The tires are so fragile. It's a tiny hole from a tack pin but it's now punctured and won't hold its pressure overnight. I have to pump the right tire everyday.  Still, it was quite awesome to transport all my stuff back and forth from the car to the actual campsite. Sooooo useful! Would have taken a lot more trips with a handle bar installed as I wouldn't be able to use both hands to carry stuff. 

[MetricUSA]

You don't bend your knees sideway, you lean left or right and the control arm leans with your knees/thighs... 

Just like if your downhill skiing, and you keep bent knees to coushion the bumps...

[Syber7]

I agree 100% - going in reverse the steering control operation should reverse as well. It is very counter-intuitive and has caused me to fling myself off the MiniPro as a result.

Just like back-up cameras reverses the image to make steering your car in reverse intuitive, so should the MiniBot control......

[Ozpeter]

I thought we'd established that reversing rotation when going backwards would be impossible to implement without unpredictable results?  Just remember, it's not steering, it's rotation.  You've only got two wheels.

[chopsywa]

On 8/19/2016 at 4:11 PM, Keith said:

I'm racking my brains to think of any other vehicle that you don't need to give a left turn in order to turn right going backwards so in that respect it isn't counterintuitive. I suspect it may even behave the same way on a Segway? Anyone tried it?

The full size Segways are the same in reverse. I.E. Counter intuitive. You get used to it pretty quickly though.

[WilliamG]

Call me a party pooper, but I'm tired of seeing this thread up here. It's not a SERIOUS FLAW. It's something you get used to, and I've never once even thought about it. You rotate your body in the direction you want to move. End of story.

[HermanTheGerman]

10 hours ago, WilliamG said:

Call me a party pooper, but I'm tired of seeing this thread up here. It's not a SERIOUS FLAW. It's something you get used to, and I've never once even thought about it. You rotate your body in the direction you want to move. End of story.

It IS definitely a serious flaw.

If you make a curve, regardless on which device (bike, motorbike, ski, EUC, anything) you always lean with the body inside the curve, not outside, because one of the law of physics (centrifugal forces) teach you already as a child to do so.

On the Mini the opposite is the case, therefore this is a very serious bug, because it is needed to drive against the law of physics, if you ride it backwards.

That simple.

[WilliamG]

2 hours ago, HermanTheGerman said:

It IS definitely a serious flaw.

If you make a curve, regardless on which device (bike, motorbike, ski, EUC, anything) you always lean with the body inside the curve, not outside, because one of the law of physics (centrifugal forces) teach you already as a child to do so.

On the Mini the opposite is the case, therefore this is a very serious bug, because it is needed to drive against the law of physics, if you ride it backwards.

That simple.

I do understand what you're saying. But given the miniPRO is a device that's quite unlike any other form of transportation, I'd say it's time to learn to adapt. It's not a serious flaw. It's just something to learn! 

Hasn't the full-size Segway been like this for years?? 

[HermanTheGerman]

12 hours ago, WilliamG said:

I do understand what you're saying. But given the miniPRO is a device that's quite unlike any other form of transportation, I'd say it's time to learn to adapt. It's not a serious flaw. It's just something to learn! 

Hasn't the full-size Segway been like this for years?? 

Yes, this is a Segway problem, too.

They should just prohibit backward riding in the software, if for some reason they are not able to steer the device correctly in that direction, but they shouldn't force people to act against natural behaviour. 

E.g. if it would be an industrial device it would have never get a license for production this way, at least not in Europe.

 

[Keith]

2 hours ago, HermanTheGerman said:

Yes, this is a Segway problem, too.

They should just prohibit backward riding in the software, if for some reason they are not able to steer the device correctly in that direction, but they shouldn't force people to act against natural behaviour. 

@WilliamG, is right this is going in circles pointlessly and isn't a serious flaw it just requires intelligence from the rider. I.e. Learning its limitations

What you are actually saying is that no device with a tilt type turning control should be used because:

• It is not possible for the software to safely reverse the steering when going backwards, I've discussed this already above.
• if reverse was prohibited it would prevent the user backing out of a dead end, you can carry a mini but not easily a Segway.
• Most important of all, they are self balancing if you lean backwards it has to go into reverse both to brake if you are going forwards and, if stationary, it has to start moving backwards to maintain balance.
• You assume the user is an idiot, the skilled user will reverse as little as possible and turn as little as possible, but will be able to do it when circumstances require it.

2 hours ago, HermanTheGerman said:

E.g. if it would be an industrial device it would have never get a license for production this way, at least not in Europe.

How can I sum this up in simple terms, Oh yes, bollocks! I drive Wave machines in my job (kind of indoor cherry pickers) The two models I drive at work do the exact opposite thing when reversing, one will turn left when you give left, the other turns right, both seem to have quite happily got industrial use approval and you can be 7 or so metres up in the air when your trying to work out which way one will go!

[HermanTheGerman]

13 hours ago, Keith said:

@WilliamG, is right this is going in circles pointlessly and isn't a serious flaw it just requires intelligence from the rider. I.e. Learning its limitations

What you are actually saying is that no device with a tilt type turning control should be used because:

• It is not possible for the software to safely reverse the steering when going backwards, I've discussed this already above.
• if reverse was prohibited it would prevent the user backing out of a dead end, you can carry a mini but not easily a Segway.
• Most important of all, they are self balancing if you lean backwards it has to go into reverse both to brake if you are going forwards and, if stationary, it has to start moving backwards to maintain balance.
• You assume the user is an idiot, the skilled user will reverse as little as possible and turn as little as possible, but will be able to do it when circumstances require it.

I know that you do not WANT to understand, but nevertheless you are very wrong.

It would be easily possible to rewrite the software in a way, that when you ride backwards, the steering of the wheels works in the natural way, not the unnatural.

Unfortunately a lot of code would need to be checked and changed, more than for the average small bugfix, and it's to expensive for them, or maybe the responsible persons fear to bring in some instability into a quite mature code. Thats the only reason.

[Ozpeter]

Why change it when most users are quite happy with the way it works now?  For the minority who have a problem with thinking in terms of rotation rather than steering, I'm running out of suggestions.