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fabio70mi

IPS121 forward inclination

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It is not a calibration function but how it is setup at the factory. 

Had written about the riding characteristics of the 121 in this review: "Control-board is setup to provide progressive tilt-back-back, allowing the rider to comfortably maintain a cruising speed of around 11mph, beyond this it becomes physically very difficult (impossible) to apply more acceleration—comparing the to the 132, I would say that the pedal-tilt-back is calibrated to be slightly more aggressive. " 

 

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I can understand that this is how it may be set up at the factory, but say if a client's IPS121 factory tilt is way off for some reason, are you saying that there is no way to do a calibration cycle to compensate (tilt it X degrees during calibration to nullify the factory X degree tilt)?  I don't think a 1-2 degree tilt would be a huge issue, but it sounds like Fabio's unit makes it feel like he's slipping off the wheel.  When you reviewed it, was it that noticeable?   It sounds like he's quite upset about this, and he likely wouldn't have posted it up if he felt that it wasn't going to be an issue.  If the IPS121 ever gets it's factory set level calibration out of whack in the field, is it not serviceable by the end user?  Is there no means of engaging the calibration mode on the motherboard?  Something's just not adding up here...

Say I make a EUC that tilts 2 degrees all the time even when it has been calibrated at a level position.  If someone were to recalibrate the EUC while it was sitting at a 2 degree opposite direction, my factory tilt would still tilt it 2 degrees from the reference level, but effectively the tilt would be zero.

EDIT:  Or does the IPS121 have a special auto-level sensor that can detect what is level no matter what and then apply a factory tilt to that thereby eliminating the availability of a calibration routine?

Edited by HunkaHunkaBurningLove

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I suggested Fabio a hardware solution: apply a couple of wooden supports to compensate the pedal's inclinations

IPS121.jpg

It is not elegant, but may work.

Edited by Frankman

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8 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

It is not a calibration function but how it is setup at the factory. 

Had written about the riding characteristics of the 121 in this review: "Control-board is setup to provide progressive tilt-back-back, allowing the rider to comfortably maintain a cruising speed of around 11mph, beyond this it becomes physically very difficult (impossible) to apply more acceleration—comparing the to the 132, I would say that the pedal-tilt-back is calibrated to be slightly more aggressive. " 

 

From Electric Unicycle terminology:

Tilt-back Tilt-back is a safety measure, where the wheel starts to tilt the pedals backwards at higher speeds to warn and prevent the rider from leaning more forwards. While it is possible to lean more and try to get more speed, it might not be wise, as you can trigger a mainboard induced cut-off due to overspeed. Most wheels have this (some let the user adjust the tilt-back speeds with app), but some don't have it at all (for example Gotways and Firewheel).

 

I interpret tilt-back is a safety measure happening when riding.  In IPS 121 you sold me, tilt is permanent. So I interpet it as a defective product by design, also without any method/procedure to correct this inclination.

Peculiarity word for this behaviour is mistaking in my opinion.

Fabio

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23 minutes ago, Frankman said:

I suggested Fabio a hardware solution: apply a couple of wooden supports to compensate the pedal's inclinations

IPS121.jpg

It is not elegant, but may work.

Thank you Frankman,

but don't you think doing this for a 780€ new product is simply absurd and drives me crazy ?

Also if wooden support is fixed to pedal, I could not close pedals.

Fabio

 

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1 minute ago, Frankman said:

@fabio70mi  Try to turn a little the mainboard and rescrew it in this new position.

I could do, but I will lose warranty, that I think in this sad situation means NOTHING, but I will try to look forward.

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Wait until you hear back from Jason before doing any fiddling with the unit.  It is best to keep on a positive basis to work the problem out.  I think we can all sense your disappointment in his matter and sympathize with you.  Who wants a brand new EUC with a crazy tilt?

Jason seems to be a good guy with a good rep so hopefully he can resolve the issue.

In the meantime if that iHandy level app isn't reading correctly for you (did you calibrate it on a level surface first?) try attaching a piece of floss to the side middle point on the pedal and tape it to the same height above the floor as it is at the pedal.  Take another piece of floss and tape it to the high end of the pedal side and using the pedal align it parallel to that.  Now at the side measure using a transparent protractor the angle with the centre point at the start of the first piece of floss.  That should tell you the angle of declination if I'm visualizing things correctly.  Take a photo or video as evidence.  I'm guessing that the angle likely is greater than 2 degrees, but heh I have been wrong before...

Edited by HunkaHunkaBurningLove

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I'm just seeing if there is a middle ground where both parties can be happy.  I like to try to think outside of the box when I can.

1.  The fundamental question is can the IPS121 be calibrated in the field?

If there is a calibration routine, why not try that first?  If the guy wants a zero level and accepts that this may overtax the speed limits of the wheel by using a calibration that is non-factory sanctioned can't it be done?  I think he just wants it level enough so his feet don't slip off the pedals.  I don't know how 1 or 2 degrees can make it feel like the feet are slipping off, and I would think it might progressively adjust as speed increases.  Maybe applying skateboard sand paper tape would help.

It may be that the factory set angle is set accidentally to more than 1 or 2 degrees.  Isn't that possible?  Stranger things have happened.  If he can provide proof of the actual angle, that might be the evidence needed to support his claim?

The simplest solution in my mind would be to do a regular reference calibration if that is possible or angled one if he is technically able to.  If you can get it level enough for him and ask him once that is done to accept all further responsibility other than warranty related issues that might be a win win.

There are always those Kobayashi Maru situations where you can't win so other than offering some possible solutions we'll see how this all pans out.

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My IPS Kahuna and IPS Zero also makes a tilt back stance when running. In my opinion, this design makes the wheels safer to ride.

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24 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

If there is a calibration routine, why not try that first?

Unfortunately there is not. But it wasn't only the level, there was also the lack of Bluetooth, the price, free shipping, now the level. It's not productive for anyone to be wasting any more time on this... 

Edited by Jason McNeil
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If it's a case of buyer's remorse and lack of researching a product before purchase the customer should foot the return shipping bill as these heavy items are not cheap to ship plus the seller gets a used product back.

Maybe a disclaimer on the IPS product page regarding the factory set operational tilt might be prudent to include to avoid this sort of problem.  It sounds like a weird quirk to not have it level but good to know about ahead of time.  In hindsight I would think it might be more comfortable to ride as on mine the feet are kept at an acute angle to my lower legs which isn't all that ergonomic.  A slight forward tilt might actually be better for distance riding as long as it isn't over 1 or 2 degrees.

It might be better for Fabio to sell it off locally if the angle is within factory parameters as it isn't fair to expect a refund on this with shipping both ways.  If it's a case of a newer rider not used to the tilt, maybe a little more time riding the EUC might allow Fabio to see the advantage of it.  Add a little grip tape, and all might be good. It can be tricky to see the advantages when something is out of the norm without trying it out for a bit.

LOL now I'm sort of tempted to recalibrate mine to tilt forwards a little to see if that makes riding more comfortable as the lean to stay rolling can be sore on the ankles after a while.

 

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8 hours ago, SlowMo said:

My IPS Kahuna and IPS Zero also makes a tilt back stance when running. In my opinion, this design makes the wheels safer to ride.

Do you ride it with the pedals tilted down towards the forward position?  When going over bumps, do you feel that your feet tend to slide forwards?  I don't have grip tape on my wheel, but I'll notice that my foot position moves a bit when going over sidewalk seams that are more uneven.  I wonder if placing some layers of grip tape on the IPS near the front half of the pedals to the middle would be enough to compensate for the slight tilt as that would elevated the front of the feet a little.  Sort of like Frankman's solution but only using grip tape.  Is the tilt more comfortable do you find as the feet/lower leg angle is not as acute?  Is the tilt angle speed dependant before it hits the pronounced tiltback or is it pretty constant?

Even if there is calibration mode hidden in there, it might be too technically challenging for non-electronics experienced users to activate it I'm guessing.   It may require soldering a jumper wire onto the board so it may not be reasonable to expect an average user to attempt.   The risk of shorting something out might not be worth the risk if done incorrectly?  Reading the review that Jason posted more in depth, the motherboard is encased in a sealed metal housing, and the photos of it look like there's no obvious jumper points (hard to tell under all those wires).  That's why I've always thought they should incorporate an easy to push on/off switch that can be easily accessed on the motherboard or nearby if ever needed.  Regarding Bluetooth, I don't see what the big deal is.  I don't have side speakers for music, and I don't have any settings on my generic unit that need adjusting.  I use an Easy Trails GPS app to monitor my trips.  I don't miss BT one bit, but I knew that going into my purchase.

The IPS121 looks to be quite a well built EUC according to the review.  12 mosfets?  Seriously?  If the slight tilt can be accommodated to or compensated for easily (eg. create a counter-tilt using grip tape), it looks like a real winner that I'd be envious of owning and maybe worth some extra time getting used to.

Edited by HunkaHunkaBurningLove

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7 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

Do you ride it with the pedals tilted down towards the forward position?  When going over bumps, do you feel that your feet tend to slide forwards?  I don't have grip tape on my wheel, but I'll notice that my foot position moves a bit when going over sidewalk seams that are more uneven.  I wonder if placing some layers of grip tape on the IPS near the front half of the pedals to the middle would be enough to compensate for the slight tilt as that would elevated the front of the feet a little.  Sort of like Frankman's solution but only using grip tape.  Is the tilt more comfortable do you find as the feet/lower leg angle is not as acute?  Is the tilt angle speed dependant before it hits the pronounced tiltback or is it pretty constant?

Even if there is calibration mode hidden in there, it might be too technically challenging for non-electronics experienced users to activate it I'm guessing.   It may require soldering a jumper wire onto the board so it may not be reasonable to expect an average user to attempt.   The risk of shorting something out might not be worth the risk if done incorrectly?  Reading the review that Jason posted more in depth, the motherboard is encased in a sealed metal housing, and the photos of it look like there's no obvious jumper points (hard to tell under all those wires).  That's why I've always thought they should incorporate an easy to push on/off switch that can be easily accessed on the motherboard or nearby if ever needed.  Regarding Bluetooth, I don't see what the big deal is.  I don't have side speakers for music, and I don't have any settings on my generic unit that need adjusting.  I use an Easy Trails GPS app to monitor my trips.  I don't miss BT one bit, but I knew that going into my purchase.

The IPS121 looks to be quite a well built EUC according to the review.  12 mosfets?  Seriously?  If the slight tilt can be accommodated to or compensated for easily (eg. create a counter-tilt using grip tape), it looks like a real winner that I'd be envious of owning and maybe worth some extra time getting used to.

Actually, it is the opposite. Since I my children ride the Zero and Kahuna, I can see them by my side and observe the wheels. They are a bit tilted upwards. Also, I like how the IPS Kahuna tilts back and beeps when the rider makes a sudden over acceleration. It also beeps and tilts back when reaching the speed limit which I consider very safe for my son. These units are well designed if ridden properly and not abused.

Edited by SlowMo
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21 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Unfortunately there is not. But it wasn't only the level, there was also the lack of Bluetooth, the price, free shipping, now the level. It's not productive for anyone to be wasting any more time on this... 

Jason, I spent 780€ for IPS121 you sold me.

It's true I wondered BT was missing because Amazon was selling IPS121 with Bluetooth (note IPS121 and not IPS121+) http://www.amazon.it/Bluetooth-pollici-Elettrico-monociclo-auto-bilanciamento/dp/B01E5F8SEU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1461759048&sr=8-3&keywords=ips121  and I told you were right because it was not declared on WheelGo site.

When I've received IPS121 I charged it and wrote to you by email that it was tilted when switched-on about 2-5 degrees and you didn't provide me any answer to that. So I rided about 15 minutes to realize it was not comfortable at all. and I wrote  you again,  and your  response was it's peculiarity.

I was not convinced about this peculiarity and I started to find for support on this forum.

I sent you 3 pictures: one with level on the floor for reference and other two with level on the pedal. You posted on the forum only the picture with level on the floor telling it was perfect. The other two pictures, I admit were blurry because I  wanted to focus also on green power led.

You referenced your review where declaring slight aggressive tilt back. Tilt back happens when riding, and not when still.

People knows the rest from this thread

You are kind to provide a refund me as unsatisfied customer (buyer's remorse), so it's responsible I pay a fee .

But I think I've received a defective product (or product with important peculiarites not described in product description), and I'm admitting to everyone I could be wrong, because it's my second wheel I'm riding, and so no experience.

IF it's a defective product I think I should not pay any fee or shipping for refund. IF it's good product I will keep it and learn to ride.

So I want to share with people reading in this forum, all data I will collect from now.

It's not a fight, I would like to have clarifications from more experienced people reading on this forum.

It's also funny a 780€ product does not have a tilt calibration that cheaper ones have.

Fabio

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On ‎26‎.‎04‎.‎2016 at 3:39 PM, Jason McNeil said:

The 121 has a very slight tilt-angle when powered on, around 1°, it's perfectly normal. As he said, Fabio's reference point for Wheel handling is with the Solowheel, & obviously the IPS 121 has different ride qualities. That being said, I've offered to Fabio to refund his purchase, but he wants me to pay for outbound shipping charges as well. Obviously I try my best to offer the best customer service—email chain with Fabio is now 47 messages long!—but in this case it's not proving easy... 

When it is just a 1 degree angle-WHEN...then it is more than nice you will take it back...my 2 cents

i would be interested how Long it took until he wants to give it back???

 

1 hour ago, fabio70mi said:

Jason, I spent 780€ for IPS121 you sold me.

It's true I wondered BT was missing because Amazon was selling IPS121 with Bluetooth (note IPS121 and not IPS121+) http://www.amazon.it/Bluetooth-pollici-Elettrico-monociclo-auto-bilanciamento/dp/B01E5F8SEU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1461759048&sr=8-3&keywords=ips121  and I told you were right because it was not declared on WheelGo site.

When I've received IPS121 I charged it and wrote to you by email that it was tilted when switched-on about 2-5 degrees and you didn't provide me any answer to that. So I rided about 15 minutes to realize it was not comfortable at all. and I wrote  you again,  and your  response was it's peculiarity.

I was not convinced about this peculiarity and I started to find for support on this forum.

I sent you 3 pictures: one with level on the floor for reference and other two with level on the pedal. You posted on the forum only the picture with level on the floor telling it was perfect. The other two pictures, I admit were blurry because I  wanted to focus also on green power led.

You referenced your review where declaring slight aggressive tilt back. Tilt back happens when riding, and not when still.

People knows the rest from this thread

You are kind to provide a refund me as unsatisfied customer (buyer's remorse), so it's responsible I pay a fee .

But I think I've received a defective product (or product with important peculiarites not described in product description), and I'm admitting to everyone I could be wrong, because it's my second wheel I'm riding, and so no experience.

IF it's a defective product I think I should not pay any fee or shipping for refund. IF it's good product I will keep it and learn to ride.

So I want to share with people reading in this forum, all data I will collect from now.

It's not a fight, I would like to have clarifications from more experienced people reading on this forum.

It's also funny a 780€ product does not have a tilt calibration that cheaper ones have.

Fabio

Ok...Bluetooth:

Nearly every Version of one same wheel has other parts that the former Version did not have....

Question is: Why haven't you ordered on Amazon, where it has bluetooth?

->Perhaps you want to save Money?

 

To call this product defective is...hmmmh..."Not so nice"...didnt even touch it!    lets better say it is driving other than solowheel or ninebot....every wheel drives other!!!

Every wheel is different and if you have been so good with the solowheel or ninebot...which are at least a liiiittle tiny bit of 400-800 bucks more....why dont you buy one of this one?

->Perhaps you want to save Money?

 

To blame the IPS for not having calibration:

Again: Ist not as expensive as ninebot or solowheel...

->So You saved Money, congrats :-)

 

And for the slight degree you have; i also would not like to "slip down" the wheel....BUT: i would use it the other way round!

I calibrated my wheel to a slightly incline so feed has to go up! Than i can push more aggressivly...

So its not that an wheel like this is defective :-) Pay the sending costs to Jason and everything is OK if it is sooooo bad that there is no way to drive it....

 

My other 2 Cents....

 

 

 

 

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fabio70mi

 

You tried the ninebot manual calibration?  Does not work IPS? For sure there is simple solution.

 

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16 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

When it is just a 1 degree angle-WHEN...then it is more than nice you will take it back...my 2 cents

i would be interested how Long it took until he wants to give it back???

I will perform new measures, but Android application was around 2.5-3 degrees.

I'm not good in English, I've not understood what does it mean "how Long it took until he wants to give it back???".

16 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Ok...Bluetooth:

Nearly every Version of one same wheel has other parts that the former Version did not have....

Question is: Why haven't you ordered on Amazon, where it has bluetooth?

->Perhaps you want to save Money?

Because it was my fault. I thought they were the exact same product "IPS121", so both with BT; because I had good referral about Jason, also receiving product from Europe. As you can see the shown price was the same.

16 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

To call this product defective is...hmmmh..."Not so nice"...didnt even touch it!    lets better say it is driving other than solowheel or ninebot....every wheel drives other!!!

It's not about driving, it's about being tilted much more than I expected it's functional.  I knew that touching/riding it I will spoil a bit so I waited for more infos.

16 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Every wheel is different and if you have been so good with the solowheel or ninebot...which are at least a liiiittle tiny bit of 400-800 bucks more....why dont you buy one of this one?

->Perhaps you want to save Money?

It was my mistake, reading I can get almost the same riding features from good chinese brands.

I thought saving money with good chinese brands, without extras like speakers, lights.

16 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

 

To blame the IPS for not having calibration:

Again: Ist not as expensive as ninebot or solowheel...

->So You saved Money, congrats :-)

As above explanation, I expected BT, and I was supposing an EUC can balance it quite well.

16 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

And for the slight degree you have; i also would not like to "slip down" the wheel....BUT: i would use it the other way round!

Ok, let's check first about the slight degree. I feel not comfortable raising front side 2-3 degrees.

16 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

I calibrated my wheel to a slightly incline so feed has to go up! Than i can push more aggressivly...

So its not that an wheel like this is defective :-) Pay the sending costs to Jason and everything is OK if it is sooooo bad that there is no way to drive it....

 

My other 2 Cents....

 

 

Again, let me demonstrate tilt angle first.

What does it mean 2 Cents ?

Fabio

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4 hours ago, fabio70mi said:

...

You are kind to provide a refund me as unsatisfied customer (buyer's remorse), so it's responsible I pay a fee .

But I think I've received a defective product (or product with important peculiarites not described in product description), and I'm admitting to everyone I could be wrong, because it's my second wheel I'm riding, and so no experience.

IF it's a defective product I think I should not pay any fee or shipping for refund. IF it's good product I will keep it and learn to ride.

So I want to share with people reading in this forum, all data I will collect from now.

It's not a fight, I would like to have clarifications from more experienced people reading on this forum.

It's also funny a 780€ product does not have a tilt calibration that cheaper ones have.

Fabio

Fabio sounds like a reasonable customer, and I agree that if the tilt is uncomfortable to get used to it might be more than what the factory normally sets these to.  This might be a possibility.  If someone on the assembly line didn't calibrate it before it left for shipping the tilt angle could be more than 1-2 degrees.  Who would have thought this is a normal characteristic for an EUC?  Also who would have figured it would be so hard to do a basic calibration on this particular model?   I don't know why EUC makers don't design these to have a long press of the power button to engage the calibration cycle like on hoverboards.  A brief press powers it on from an off state, but a long press engages the hoverboard's calibration mode.  Simple, effective, avoids the need to access the motherboard at all.  If they want to solder wires to the board and seal it into a case, why not include a basic function that is easily accessible?

If you can demonstrate the angle of the tilt, I think that would give everyone a better idea of what we're dealing with.  Fabio's in a difficult situation where I'm sure he doesn't want to ride the IPS too much for fear of scratching it up making a return more problematic so that can be an issue in itself.

Edited by HunkaHunkaBurningLove

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1 hour ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

Fabio sounds like a reasonable customer, 

Really? I've just been "lurking" on these posts but I'm not at all sure I'm seeing reasonable behaviour? 

First he complains that @Jason McNeil didn't state that this wheel didn't have Bluetooth (he didn't state that it didn't have lights and didn't have speakers either, why didn't he also "assume" they should have been there?). When not having Bluetooth that it was not advertised as not having wasn't enough then, suddenly, it doesn't ride like a Solowheel either. Well, as far as I understand, every wheel rides differently, how many times have you seen reviews make statements like: "after my Ninebot my new wheel X feels very <soft/hard/strange/etc> and it took me a couple of weeks to get used to it". If I've understood correctly we, so far have seen no proof that the tilt is anymore than 2 degrees yet, (the spirit level picture certainly does not suggest it is more than 2 degrees to me?) This is correct for this wheel, note also it is a tilt upwards so Fabio is riding it backwards in order for it to be a tilted downwards. How long has he actually ridden it the right way around in order to get used to its characteristics?

So far my gut feeling is that he has realised he didn't research what he was buying, has realised he made a big mistake, there isn't anything actually wrong with what is actually a first generation wheel so doesn't have all the latest bells and whistles and now expects the seller to take all the loss on shipping cost etc for what actually, so far, looks to me like his mistake. 

I had better declare my interest here: I purchased my KingSong from Jason last November and, after a couple of weeks the on/off switch failed, Jason was very responsive to the problem and very quickly arranged for his mechanic to repair it for me (and offered to replace the wheel if a simple change of switch did not fix the problem)  I later realised that the trolley handle would be nice and he was equally efficient in supplying it. As far as I can see, Jason is bending over backwards to be fair here as well.

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Hello,

below the link to measures I've made to IPS121.

If it's not good, or need other testing I can do, I will do

 

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Hey Fabio, thanks for the video.  I love your accent.  With the iHandy Level App, can you press the calibration button first while it is on the ground?  That's the little square target button on the app.  It zeros it basically.  Starting with a 0.9 deviation throws the actual result off a bit, but from what I see it looks like 3.6 - 0.9 = 2.7 degrees tilt on the one side.  Now, I haven't ridden mine with a 2-3 degree tilt before, but maybe someone else who owns an IPS can take a similar measurement on their wheel so we can compare.  If all IPS wheels have this 2-3 degree tilt I'm afraid then that's just a "feature" of this brand.  There also could be inaccuracies introduced by a slightly off angle mounted pedal possibly?  A little skateboard grip tape at the lower end might be enough to reduce that angle to feel more like 1-2 degrees instead and increase grip.

Regarding Fabio's character, I don't know him from any one of the rest of you on this forum.  I've learned that there's usually a couple sides to all stories.  He could be a nitpicking, crazy, highly demanding customer, or he might just be a regular guy concerned about a tilt that was not present on the other two reference wheels that he was used to or he could be somewhere in between.  I usually try to give people the benefit of a doubt until I learn otherwise.  I think he made an honest mistake about the missing Bluetooth on this wheel as IPS have several confusing model names and features.  I think he admitted to this.  I think the crux of the matter is that he thinks the current tilt is greater than normal and a product defect so that is why he was not happy about the cost of return shipping.  If you received an item that you thought wasn't working right from the start, it is fair to expect that you pay for shipping back?  The question is whether this tilt is in fact a defect or just a characteristic to this EUC.  I am no expert to judge, but I am curious about whether there is enough evidence to support his claims.  In any case, we're free to make up our minds about each other - people usually either love me or hate me and my opinion so I'm fine with that.

Edited by HunkaHunkaBurningLove
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