Ninebot tipped forward

[SuperSport]

People who ride beyond the limits of their wheel will faceplant on ANY wheel.  It's a Dangerous Sport and needs to be treated with respect.  Not to say any of these people were doing wrong, but it's a good idea to ride well BELOW the listed limits if you want to avoid, as much as possible, a Faceplant.

Riding below the limits allows for variations in the ground and terrain.  Things just show up unexpectedly and the wheel needs extra power to deal with that.  Bumps, Rocks, Feet Twitching Unexpectedly, Wind, etc...

[chriscalandro]

The speed limit and tiltback are there because that is the mechanical limit. 

If you ride at the limit and you hit a bump while leaning forward the wheel (any wheel) will not have enough torque to tilt you back.

Angular momentum with a shaft (you) 5.5 ft tall (give or take) requires an immense amount of torque. 

It will try while it falls forward speeding up along the way. Which is what happens in the video. 

Firmware and programing can only compensate for stupidity so much...

[musk]

11 hours ago, SlowMo said:

More often with the Ninebot. Have you recently heard of overleaning issues with the Gotway, IPS or Kingsong in this forum? Surely if any incident occurred, it will be immediately posted unless if the owner doesn't want to.

Though to be fair, the ninebot forum has about 3x the number of messages as the next most popular brands.  If we use that crude measurement to estimate ownership rates, shouldn't there be 3x the number of reported problems all things considered?

[Cloud]

8 minutes ago, musk said:

Though to be fair, the ninebot forum has about 3x the number of messages as the next most popular brands.  If we use that crude measurement to estimate ownership rates, shouldn't there be 3x the number of reported problems all things considered?

This was exactly my point in another thread. The percceived safety of a brand has to be assessed by weighing the number if reported accidents to the number of units out there in proportion To the number of the units of the other brands

[SlowMo]

1 hour ago, musk said:

Though to be fair, the ninebot forum has about 3x the number of messages as the next most popular brands.  If we use that crude measurement to estimate ownership rates, shouldn't there be 3x the number of reported problems all things considered?

Still, people report cases of failure and if the other brands incur the same, the reports will come in numbers. So far, I haven't heard of any Gotway or Kingsong suddenly cutting  off while accelerating.

Edit: One case reported for the MSuper. No warning beeps and there was a bad fall.

[Jason McNeil]

1 hour ago, musk said:

Though to be fair, the ninebot forum has about 3x the number of messages as the next most popular brands.  If we use that crude measurement to estimate ownership rates, shouldn't there be 3x the number of reported problems all things considered?

Power & cut-outs are like a spectrum. Let's use an AW X3 as the baseline with a score of 2, cut-outs are predictable & at low speed, which counterintuitively makes it relatively safe, because owners can run off without much fuss.  

Now take the next step up, say an IPS 32 cell Wheel or the Ninebot E+; cut-out threshold is increased to, say, level 5, but so to is the speed. Programmed tilt-back behaviour might prevent 80% of unsafe user actions, but now with speeds into the 18-20kph range, a run-off event is not so assured. 

As power is increased to levels 8-10 with KS & GW, while the power is there & cut-outs are far less frequent, if something does go wrong, the run-off scenario might now be as low as 20% & when these events do occur, at the top end of the power output, or motor stall speed, the consequences are pretty dreadful.

[Colestien]

@Jason McNeil can't fault your logic....but what good is a Wheel that you can depend to fail you at a safe (recoverable) speed when you can't relax on it because you know it will fail?  I like the ideal of a Wheel that fails are know "only" to happen at higher speeds.  Then then I know if I keep it below that speed I'm safe.  I feel we are saying the same thing....but I'm looking at it from another angle.

[Kwing]

7 minutes ago, Colestien said:

@Jason McNeil can't fault your logic....but what good is a Wheel that you can depend to fail you at a safe (recoverable) speed when you can't relax on it because you know it will fail?  I like the ideal of a Wheel that fails are know "only" to happen at higher speeds.  Then then I know if I keep it below that speed I'm safe.  I feel we are saying the same thing....but I'm looking at it from another angle.

Collestian I agree with you... it makes it so hard when you don't know what will happen with the she'll and under what circumstances..  the thing about you will find out after accidents occur is too late and doesn't cut it..

If it's there and you don't follow then it's another thing.. 

[Jason McNeil]

I'd say that the Wheel failures that are reported on this forum are consistent & reproducible given the same set of circumstances. My point is that there are absolutes, certain Wheels are intrinsically weaker & more prone to cut-outs than others, there is a measurable/objective amount of power that each wheel can sustain, it remains for someone to independently test to find out what these are  

[SlowMo]

5 hours ago, Kwing said:

Collestian I agree with you... it makes it so hard when you don't know what will happen with the she'll and under what circumstances..  the thing about you will find out after accidents occur is too late and doesn't cut it..

If it's there and you don't follow then it's another thing.. 

You can still ride your Ninebot but always be on alert. Never straighten your legs and always ride with bent knees. You will also need better wrist, elbow and knee pads. If you don't mind, then you can wear a helmet. A full face helmet is highly suggested since you know that your unit is to cut off any time and might cause a face plant. You should also ride at very low speeds to enable you to run off any shut downs. Better yet, get a more reliable brand like the KS-14C. Deciding on an EU is a balancing act.

Cool<----------|----------->Safe

[Chriull]

Also the stiffness setting ("cycling somatosensory") of the ninebot could have influence on the overlean possibility. The "stiffer" the setting the faster the wheel has to accelerate to keep the pedal straight - so more power is needed and overpowering could happen more easily. On the other side a "softer" setting let the pedals stay a little bit longer tilted forward, so it gives the driver a little sensation of falling forward and "reminds" one to not push it too far?

Some forum member once mentioned that the stiff setting/sport mode of his gotway is like level 5 (out of 0..10) from ninebot - could be interessting how it compares to the other actual models.

[OliverH]

11 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Power & cut-outs are like a spectrum. Let's use an AW X3 as the baseline with a score of 2, cut-outs are predictable & at low speed, which counterintuitively makes it relatively safe, because owners can run off without much fuss.  

Now take the next step up, say an IPS 32 cell Wheel or the Ninebot E+; cut-out threshold is increased to, say, level 5, but so to is the speed. Programmed tilt-back behaviour might prevent 80% of unsafe user actions, but now with speeds into the 18-20kph range, a run-off event is not so assured. 

As power is increased to levels 8-10 with KS & GW, while the power is there & cut-outs are far less frequent, if something does go wrong, the run-off scenario might now be as low as 20% & when these events do occur, at the top end of the power output, or motor stall speed, the consequences are pretty dreadful.

That's not the right taxonomy to rate the EUs in general but can be used to give the right answers in a failure tree analysis.

I call the X3 dangerous because of the lack of power and the low battery capacity. You can shut it off while breaking, accelerating by 2-3 times. I switch it off/ put it to the ground by breaking. This kind of EUs will later have no chance to get a type approval.

[SuperSport]

6 hours ago, Chriull said:

Some forum member once mentioned that the stiff setting/sport mode of his gotway is like level 5 (out of 0..10) from ninebot - could be interessting how it compares to the other actual models.

I've also heard from other forum members/wheel techs that they really REALLY like the programming on 1.3.5 Firmware compared to other brand wheels.  Especially the control and predictability of what it does when you tell it to do something.  And they ride other brand wheels.

[chriscalandro]

1.3.5 is VERY good

[Cloud]

12 hours ago, SlowMo said:

You can still ride your Ninebot but always be on alert. Never straighten your legs and always ride with bent knees. You will also need better wrist, elbow and knee pads. If you don't mind, then you can wear a helmet. A full face helmet is highly suggested since you know that your unit is to cut off any time and might cause a face plant. You should also ride at very low speeds to enable you to run off any shut downs. Better yet, get a more reliable brand like the KS-14C. Deciding on an EU is a balancing act.

Cool<----------|----------->Safe

As much as i like @SlowMo i cant agree. I dont think @Kwing has to constantly live in fear of the wheel failing. What kind of life is that? That will defeat the purpose of the riding experience - its supposed to be fun.

it sound like to me that there was no cut out? It was just an overlean like any wheel will do if you rush forward too rapidly. All Kwing has to do is learn the limits of his wheel and ride below these limits.  

[SlowMo]

3 minutes ago, Cloud said:

As much as i like @SlowMo i cant agree. I dont think @Kwing has to constantly live in fear of the wheel failing. What kind of life is that? That will defeat the purpose of the riding experience - its supposed to be fun.

it sound like to me that there was no cut out? It was just an overlean like any wheel will do if you rush forward too rapidly. All Kwing has to do is learn the limits of his wheel and ride below these limits.  

What if the same event occured even if he rode slowly? Was it established that the incident was due to overleaning and not due to some glitch?

[Jason McNeil]

10 hours ago, OliverH said:

not the right taxonomy to rate the EUs

Distinction is between the descriptive & the prescriptive: the scale rankings example is descriptive. I'm not advocating the X3 class Wheels as being in any way 'safe' (personally I loath the things), but it does seem to be a fact that we don't hear of daily injuries caused by users on these weak Wheels.

10 hours ago, Chriull said:

stiffness setting ("cycling somatosensory") of the ninebot could have influence on the overlean possibility

That makes sense, also the response to input (leaning forward) lends itself to faster acceleration than soft settings. 

[dpong]

My musings on this topic (for myself, of course) are these: 

If you ride long enough you are going to fall. 

If you fall enough times you are going to get hurt. 

Dress and ride accordingly.  Don't live in fear, but know this to be true. 

[Cloud]

2 hours ago, SlowMo said:

What if the same event occured even if he rode slowly? Was it established that the incident was due to overleaning and not due to some glitch?

No it wasnt established, but from the description it sounds like it. If the unit cuts out i wouldnt ride it at all until fixed. Even at slow speeds you can get hurt. But if this was a regular overlean, no need to fear it, just know the limits.

@Kwing did the unit feel unstable before you fell? Or did the unit shut down and you got thrown off instantly?

[SlowMo]

4 minutes ago, Cloud said:

No it wasnt established, but from the description it sounds like it. If the unit cuts out i wouldnt ride it at all until fixed. Even at slow speeds you can get hurt. But if this was a regular overlean, no need to fear it, just know the limits.

@Kwing did the unit feel stable before you fell? Or did the unit shut down and you got thrown off instantly?

Well, it's now a matter of trust. If @Kwing still trust that the unit will not fail him the second time then everything should be ok and life should go on as it should.

[dmethvin]

All EUCs make promises like Rick Astley but eventually they're all gonna throw you off, let you down, make you cry, and hurt you.

All the Ninebot firmware problems of the past few months have me wondering whether even the latest versions are safe. It would be really interesting to know more details about the people who have experienced failures have anything in common, e.g. model, firmware version, speed during the incident, use of the Bluetooth pairing with a phone at the time, etc.

[Kwing]

17 hours ago, SlowMo said:

You can still ride your Ninebot but always be on alert. Never straighten your legs and always ride with bent knees. You will also need better wrist, elbow and knee pads. If you don't mind, then you can wear a helmet. A full face helmet is highly suggested since you know that your unit is to cut off any time and might cause a face plant. You should also ride at very low speeds to enable you to run off any shut downs. Better yet, get a more reliable brand like the KS-14C. Deciding on an EU is a balancing act.

Cool<----------|----------->Safe

Slow mo I guess I have to... I don't know what else will happen now..  don't want to break bones or kill myself to find out.. damn fun do come at a cost..

[SuperSport]

1 hour ago, Kwing said:

damn fun do come at a cost..

@Kwing - Having ridden motorcycles my whole life, I can tell you that stuff does and will happen.  I've had Tires Blow Unexpectedly, Motors Freeze Up, Brakes go Out, Cars Pull Out, even Hit a Deer.  The best you can do if you decide to do this stuff AND you don't want to get hurt, is to wear the correct gear, pay attention, train, don't push it, and hope for the best.

In the 100's of thousands of miles I've put on the highway on Motorcycles, I've only been down ONCE, and I'm hoping to keep the EUC falls to a minimum also.  In the dirt on Motorcycles and Bicycles, I've fallen too many times to count.

[EUCMania]

On 2/1/2016 at 0:04 AM, SlowMo said:

This is not new and is a natural phenomenon to the famous Ninebot. Here are 2 very similar events:

 

 

 

 

 

I see the accident happens this way: 1. high speed going down from the sidewalk, through a drop,  to the street that inclines up. 2. NB1 will tilt forward in this situation. 3. The tilting forward, not corrected by the riders posture, causing more forward leaning. 4. NB1 could not meet the power draw and accident follows.

So, when one rides NB1 going through down incline, a drop,  to up incline,  reduce the forward leaning to negate the forward tilting and slow down to give NB1 enough power to climb the upward incline. And bend knees to give you better reaction and reduce the impact and power draw when NB1 going up.

 

[SuperSport]

2 minutes ago, ECUMania said:

So, when one rides NB1 going through down incline, a drop,  to up incline,  reduce the forward leaning to negate the forward tilting and slow down to give NB1 enough power to climb the upward incline.

I agree.  I never Expect the wheel to hold up under extreme cases.  When I'm changing surfaces or grades, I slow down and then speed back up if wanted.